I started out as a biologist, studying evolutionary biology and animal behavior. Then, I switched to writing software for a while. Eventually, I accidentally took a job at IBM Research in a group studying stories in organizations. At the time, I didn't even know what that meant, but it was a job.
It turned out that studying stories in organizations was quite related to animal behavior and evolutionary biology, so I naturally slid into sociology from a sideways angle. I've now been studying organizational and community narratives—how stories move around in organizations, communities, and society—for over 21 years.
Back in graduate school, I studied complexity as a biologist, and that interest has stayed with me throughout my career. This new book is the result of 30 years of thinking about complexity, finally coming together. My previous book, Working with Stories, is available at workingwithstories.org, where you can read the entire book.
Understanding Complexity
Let's start with a conversation about complexity before moving to historical topics. Since you have a background in biology and have studied complexity deeply, I'd love to hear your thoughts. What is the primary difference between the complex systems you studied in biology and human complex systems, such as social systems?
Well, when I was first studying complexity, it was really about pure complexity and self-organization. The organisms I studied—whether real or simulated—did not have the capabilities we humans have. Once you start looking at primates and other mammals, you begin to see organization emerge. That means they’re not just reacting to local stimuli but are responding to global patterns and attempting to control them.
One of the biggest differences between people and, say, ants is that ants don’t have the ability to say, "Hey, let's all do this together." They rely on pheromones and indirect signals. But humans can intentionally attempt to control global patterns. Any person can choose to ignore a sign, put up a new one, or influence their surroundings in ways that ants cannot.
So when studying complexity in humans, it's never just about self-organization. There’s always an element of intentional organization mixed in. What interests me is how these two forces—self-organization and intentional organization—blend together and influence each other. In discussions about complexity, people often treat self-organization as an independent force, but with humans, it's never separate. That’s what my work has been focused on.
The Power of Storytelling in Complexity
What you're saying is that humans highly influence their environment. Another key point is that language plays a crucial role in human complexity. Our ability to communicate allows us to build and shape our reality together. This is why stories are so important, right?
Yes, exactly. As soon as you put a group of people together, pure self-organization disappears. People will always influence the overall patterns, and language is a big part of that. Storytelling allows us to make sense of the complexity we experience.
Why Stories Matter in Organizations
So let’s talk about stories and how we can work with them to help organizations. Since organizations are complex systems made up of people, why is working with stories a good way to help them?
Working with stories is like working with breathing—it’s something we are already doing. When you practice meditation or yoga, you focus on your breath to regulate your state. Similarly, organizations and communities are already telling and sharing stories. If we pay attention to how stories move through an organization, we can both benefit from them and shape them.
We use stories to negotiate truth, and since storytelling is already happening, we can harness it to regulate and influence culture. If you don’t know what stories are being told in an organization, it’s like being unaware of your own breathing. You can’t work with it to improve things until you become aware of it.
Introducing Participatory Narrative Inquiry (PNI)
You developed an approach called Participatory Narrative Inquiry (PNI). Can you tell us about it? How does it work, and how can organizations benefit from it?
PNI is about becoming aware of the stories people share, helping them feel permission to share stories openly. Many people think they don’t have permission to tell stories, so they sneak them in around the edges. But when you allow and encourage storytelling, it changes everything.
When you do story work in organizations, you learn about the organization, but you also create an intervention that changes it. Every project gives people more permission to talk about what’s happening, tell stories about their experiences, and shape the culture.
Culture and Storytelling
Culture is a major topic in Agile communities. Many people argue that an organization "can’t be agile" because of its culture. How do you see the role of culture in everything we are discussing? How can working with stories help build better organizational cultures?
Every organization shares stories, but some have healthier storytelling cultures than others. I include an assessment in my book to evaluate how strong and open the storytelling culture is. For example, can employees openly share a story about a mistake? Or do they feel unsafe doing so?
People who want to foster a healthy storytelling culture can take steps to encourage it. Organizations that allow open storytelling build trust and resilience. A strong storytelling culture enables organizations to acknowledge mistakes, learn from them, and adapt faster—essentially making them more agile.
Sensemaking and Decision-Making
You've been working on a new tool for sensemaking. Can you tell us about it?
The sensemaking tool, called Confluence, has been evolving for years. It started when I was working on the Cynefin framework with Dave Snowden, and over time, I developed my own model. Confluence is a thinking space with multiple dimensions to help groups understand complex topics like education, healthcare, or organizational change.
The tool provides a way for teams to explore patterns and connections in their challenges, leading to better collective decision-making.
Challenges in Working with Stories
What are the biggest challenges you've faced when helping organizations work with stories?
Two main challenges stand out. The first is courage. Many organizations say they want to hear their employees' real experiences, but when confronted with uncomfortable truths, they resist. I’ve seen projects shut down because leadership was unwilling to hear what employees had to say.
The second challenge is the misconception that storytelling is "magic" and should be easy. Some organizations believe they can control narratives to manipulate people, but this backfires. Authentic, participatory storytelling creates lasting cultural change, while forced narratives create silent resistance.
The Connection Between Stories and Business Agility
In the Business Agility community, we often ask: "What truly makes an organization agile?" I believe what we’ve discussed today—connecting people through storytelling—is what really enables agility. How do you see this connection?
Agility isn't about rigid frameworks or step-by-step processes; it’s about adaptability. Imagine an agile animal dodging and weaving through obstacles. Now, imagine that animal is actually a group, moving as one. That level of coordination comes from strong, flexible connections.
In organizations, those connections come from storytelling. Sharing experiences and perspectives strengthens collective awareness, enabling teams to move fluidly and make better decisions together.
Final Thoughts and Advice
What final advice would you give to those wanting to help organizations work with stories?
Be careful not to manipulate people with storytelling. The best approach is participatory—giving people space to share their own narratives rather than imposing one on them. The most powerful transformations happen when organizations listen and co-create their stories with their people.
Start small. Experiment with storytelling in conversations, meetings, and retrospectives. Over time, as organizations embrace storytelling, they will naturally become more adaptive, resilient, and ultimately, more agile.
Thank you so much for this conversation! Your insights confirm what we believe: agility is about people, not just processes.