CSG’s Mission-Driven Agile Journey | AgileAmped Podcast
CSG started out in cable billing and over time has transformed into a media company. With the industry moving so quickly, they couldn’t wait 12-18 months to deliver value to the customers had to figure out how to deliver value quicker through Agile.
Jill Edmunson, Enterprise Portfolio Management leader at CSG, and her colleague Lesa Phillips, an Agile coach and RTE, sat down with Agile Amped to share some fascinating insights into this Agile journey. CSG’s vision statement “make work visible, connect people to our strategy and driving engagement and excitement” is baked into everything they do. Edmunson and Phillips describe some unique forums they’ve implemented to connect strategy to execution in the form of Shark Tanks, Think Tanks and Do Tanks.
You’ll also learn more about engaging all levels of the organization through showcases at PI Planning, CSG Café used for agility training, and how to build connections and partnerships.
Accenture | SolutionsIQ’s Leslie Morse hosts at the Business Agility Conference in New York City.
The Agile Amped podcast is the shared voice of the Agile community, driven by compelling stories, passionate people, and innovative ideas. Together, we are advancing the impact of business agility.
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Read the full transcript
LESLIE MORSE: Welcome to another edition of Agile Amped. I’m your host, Leslie Morse, and we’re podcasting from the Business Agility Conference in New York City. I am honored to be joined by two guests today for this conversation. First, we’ve got Jill Edmundson, she is in enterprise portfolio management at CSG International, where she oversees strategic R&D initiatives, through risk and investment decisions that enable the organization to optimize resources in support of the most strategically significant projects and programs.
With her today, we have Lesa Phillips. She is an Agile coach and release train engineer at CSG International, and in her role is responsible for coordinating key activities, driving effective communications, mitigating risks and contributing to CSG’s culture of innovation and collaboration.
Jill and Lesa, thank you so much for joining me today.
LESA PHILLIPS: Thank you.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Thank you, Leslie, we are excited to be here.
LESLIE MORSE: Your session here, at the conference, is really all about building bridges and coming together, partnership, culture, and really telling the success story that CSG has had through its Agile journey, right?
LESA PHILLIPS: Yes.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Exactly, exactly.
LESLIE MORSE: Great. There’s not enough good success stories for people telling out there. Our listeners absolutely love these stories from the field. I’m excited for today’s chat.
JILL EDMUNDSON: That’s wonderful. And I want to just start by saying that, although the stories that we’re sharing today are fairly recent, most of our experience comes within the last year and a half. CSG’s been on an Agile transformation for a number of years, and we are standing on the shoulders of some amazing people who came before us, some thought leaders who came and really brought CSG into this fold. We wouldn’t be here today if it weren’t for all of their efforts.
LESLIE MORSE: Can we actually explore that for just a minute?
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yes.
LESLIE MORSE: What was the impetus for Agile at CSG in the beginning? That purpose driven motive is actually a really key part of this.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yes. Let me … Can I ask you a question?
LESLIE MORSE: Sure.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Are you a consumer of entertainment services outside of podcasting?
LESLIE MORSE: Yeah.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Do you have cable?
LESLIE MORSE: I do.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Do you have internet?
LESLIE MORSE: Yeah.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Do you, or your grandparents, have a telephone in your home?
LESLIE MORSE: Actually, yes.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Then obviously, wireless. You probably have a mobile device or twenty. So, CSG started off 20-30 years ago in the cable billing industry. A cable provider said we’re really good at content, we’re really good at entertainment, not so much at the billing, let’s outsource that function. CSG came up as a cable biller, it was outsourced, not the sexiest thing on the planet but it was a niche market that we have to serve. Over the course of the eighties and the nineties, cable companies became internet companies, right? Internet companies became telephone companies and the whole industry got mixed up.
LESLIE MORSE: Now the internet and telephone companies are becoming media companies.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Bingo! Look at Comcast, look at NBC Universal, look at Hulu, look at Viacom. I think earlier today, I heard someone say Agile wasn’t a choice, it was a strategic imperative. As the business that we supported started to change, we really, we being my predecessors, 8-10 years ago said if we are going to stay alive, if we are going to future prove this company for our shareholders, for our employees, we need to change. That’s when the Agile philosophy came knocking at our door.
Now, you probably have more insights because you were a part of that team, and how it was created. Do you want to share some of those?
LESA PHILLIPS: Sure. We knew that we had to change how we were getting work through the factory, and how we were delivering value. We couldn’t wait, the industry was moving so quickly, we could not wait twelve, eighteen months to deliver value to our customers. We had to figure out how we could change just as quickly as the industry was changing. Thus, we started down our Agile journey and we started to deliver that value much quicker.
LESLIE MORSE: Excellent.
JILL EDMUNDSON: That’s where we are today. In recent years, our ability to really affect change at an enterprise level has grown, the leadership has put a lot of trust in our team, and in our vision and I would say over the next 12-24 months, we will be doing Agile at scale and its incredibly exciting.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s great. Before we dig to more of this story, I want to know a little more about just the two of you, and your personal things like what landed you here and, I see the passion on your faces as we’re talking today so, what brought you here and why Agile? Why this movement?
JILL EDMUNDSON: Lesa, I’ll let you start because my story’s not nearly as cool as yours.
LESA PHILLIPS: What brought me to CSG is I was looking for a challenge. I had been in the Agile space for about 4-5 years, scrum master, product owner, business analyst. I wanted to affect change at a broader scale, and the opportunity presented itself to move into Agile coach role and I thought, oh my gosh, here we go. It was training, it was coaching teams, my passion is watching people have that “Ah ha!” moment when you’re trying to get them to think differently and they don’t think they can do it, then it happens. That is what brought me to CSG and I’ve been with CSG for a little over 3 years, but in the last 18 months, the amount of change and the amount of “Ah ha!” moments that we’ve had has just been amazing.
LESLIE MORSE: I too, am someone like when that light bulb moment goes off with somebody, I get chill bumps. Yes, this is why we’re here. I really resinate with that.
LESA PHILLIPS: This is why I get up in the morning.
LESLIE MORSE: Yes, that’s great. Having that purpose driven motive that gets you up for work everyday makes a huge difference in quality of life.
JILL EDMUNDSON: We’re convinced that we were put together by something much bigger than some billing support software. I started off at CSG, it was my first job out of college, just got into the business side of it. I started supporting all of our product implementations, closing contracts, supporting new installs. I ran a PMO, I did some operations. I was true business bread and butter.
3 years ago, I decided its time to re-invent my career, its time to take on something new and I was given this opportunity to really dig in to an optimization program. Through that, you realize that if you want to optimize, if you want to future prove, it comes down to behavioral changes. That’s when Lesa and I’s paths began to cross and I said, “Here’s the outcomes we want to achieve.” Which is a significant objective, and she said “Jill, the only way we’re going to get there, is to mobilize people to think differently.” That’s when this pretty powerful combination came together.
We invented with the wonderful stewardship of some amazing leaders and mentors that we have in the industry, and I’d love to acknowledge them at some point. Scott Prugh, who was a thought leader throughout the dev-ops community. He spoke at various Agile conferences, he has been a tremendous supporter of us in this phase.
Brian Clarke, Chad Donnavan, Ken Kennedy. We wouldn’t be able to do this- we often sit in here and we see other people struggling to get that first step because they’re missing that leadership alignment. We have that, and that does not go unnoticed. It is part of our success.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s one of failure points of organizations that tend not to be able to go on this journey successfully.
JILL EDMUNDSON: And if I forgot anybody I apologize.
LESA PHILLIPS: I was just going to say not only do we have their support but we have them kind of pushing us. So they’re leading from the back of the room, pushing us forward, and we cannot grow this fast enough for them, which is awesome.
LESLIE MORSE: Jill, you mentioned outcomes, right? And knowing what those outcomes are is a critical piece for setting the foundation for moving forward. So what were some of those outcomes you guys were seeking as you embarked on the journey?
JILL EDMUNDSON: Earlier I asked if you were a cable consumer, or what kind of entertainment or content you consume. It’s because at the end of the day we have the same margin pressures that other publicly traded companies do. Cable market share is going down, internet penetration is going up, and the way our company formerly made money was by those margins: by having multiple lines of business versus specific household or subscriber. We’re having to reinvent how we monetize our services, and so what we’re doing now is finding opportunities really to tap into that flow-based mentality, that service-based, that managed service. The outcomes that our leaders are looking for are to help us support the new business reality which is having better margins operating at a lower cost threshold. These are concepts that I know I bore Lesa to death with, but it’s what happens when we do Agile right.
LESLIE MORSE: Absolutely. Anything to add to that, Lesa?
LESA PHILLIPS: No, I think that those really are our bottom line outcomes.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yes, we need to keep our stockholders happy, we need to keep our employees happy, and also from a culture perspective we want to make CSG a funner, cooler, more dynamic place to work. Most employees aren’t watching the trading points all hours of the day, but employees do know if they’re excited to come to work or are they just clocking in. I’d like to say one of the biggest measurements of success that we have is, are we surrounding ourselves with people who are seeing the vision that we do for our company, and are excited to be a part of the change.
LESLIE MORSE: When you have those people who are excited and engaged every day, the other things come from that. Because they’re focused on the right work and they’re not worried about all the other stuff. So, you mentioned vision and I gather from conversations that this journey you guys are on is absolutely a mission-driven journey. Not enough organizations have that laser focus on what the mission is. So, let’s inspire listeners. If you’re going to go back home and you’re going to get in work, if you’re going to build a mission that really compels people… how have y’all done it? What are the important parts?
JILL EDMUNDSON: I don’t know if this will lend itself to podcast but Lesa, let’s say our vision statement together so we can demonstrate to Leslie how seriously we take this. We live and breathe this, so our collective vision is to: Make Work Visible…
LESA PHILLIPS: Yep, and then Connect Our People to Our Strategy, and Driving Engagement and Excitement.
JILL EDMUNDSON: That’s it. We basically start every meeting with that, we end every meeting with that, as we start to put time on peoples’ calendars I say “Which imperative does this support? Are we doing something to help make work visible?” By making work visible, that’s really saying get your secrets out on the table. Your secrets make you sick. So if you are up to your ears, Leslie, with noise, and your boss doesn’t know that it’s never going to get better.
LESLIE MORSE: That phrase “your secrets make you sick” was like a gut punch, yes. That is such a resonate phrase.
JILL EDMUNDSON: It is. And too much whip, too many handoffs, ineffective processes, archaic software development procedures, those are all dirty little secrets in the software development industry. So, guess what? If we can create an environment built on trust, a no-blame zone, where I can walk in and say “Help me help you, what is it keeping your team up at night?” Making that visible. When we say visible we mean visible.
LESA PHILLIPS: Physically visible. Visible on a wall.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Overtaking conference rooms, laminating Post It notes, putting it on the wall, forcing discussions, forcing trade-offs, prioritizing work, de-prioritizing work, through a physical context. And obviously technical because we’re all technicians, using various forms of electronic boards and kanbans and all that good stuff. But the physical presence of work really helps be a catalyst for change.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s so cool. So, if that’s work visible let’s talk more about the connecting people and strategy. I actually think that might be one of the hardest nuggets to crack when I listened to the three that you guys are talking about.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Ask yourself, do all the people want to be connected to this strategy? Do some people just kind of want to walk into work and do their thing?
LESLIE MORSE: I don’t know… There’s a place for that.
JILL EDMUNDSON: There is, and we’ve been told “Hey, some of your meetings are too strategic.” Don’t know, don’t care, move on. How do you connect people to strategy without maybe letting them know they’re being connected?
LESLIE MORSE: Good call.
JILL EDMUNDSON: It’s a little philosophical, but letting them know that they are part of a bigger picture, their work is valuable, they are working on some of the biggest initiatives for our company, whether they know it or not. That’s part of what we do all day every day.
LESA PHILLIPS: I think one of the most effective ways that we have connected our people to our strategy is by making the work visible. Where do they fit into that big picture? What is the why? What is the why for what they are working on? Then bringing people together and making sure that we’ve got cascading communication through all levels of the organization. What we’ve found when we started this is that maybe the top layer was well-informed, but now we’re making sure that that same exact message is being cascaded through all levels of the organization. That is providing transparency, it’s creating trust. Those two kind of go hand-in-hand.
LESLIE MORSE: With that level of alignment and engagement across all of the teams, I would imagine, does that permeate itself when you think of your role as a RTE? With all of these teams working together on a value stream or within art, does that show up in your epics and features, all the way down to the user story level?
LESA PHILLIPS: Yes, absolutely. I think that it plays a critical role in our ability to plan together and to mitigate risks because we are so transparent with what the work is at all levels.
JILL EDMUNDSON: When we talk about connecting people to strategy, we’ve really broken down the concept of people beyond the traditional hierarchy. Our company has three thousand people worldwide and when we first started in this space we were primarily focused on our North American employees and their teams and so we took the organization and we said “What does it mean to connect people?” We said, “We’ve got this layer of the organization, your leadership team, the people that are driving the strategic initiatives, the people that are making the budgeting decisions” so we called that our Shark Tank. Just like the television show. These are the people that hear ideas and they ask the right questions, they vet the opportunities, and then they say yes or no.
LESLIE MORSE: Fund or not.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yep! Shark Tank on its own though, without an execution layer, you fail to connect the strategy. You have a strategy, but does that strategy actually drive change? After Shark Tank we said, “Okay, what’s the next layer?” For our organization it is product owners, so you’ve got the strategy and we called this Think Tank. It’s a forum we pull together every couple weeks, and it’s product management and product owners coming in and taking the exact same talking points that have been distilled out of Shark Tank and then figuring out what our execution strategy is going to be. “Hey guys, we’ve got a PI coming up, is this going to be able to come in? What does your capacity look like?” We start having some of those critical planning discussions at the Think Tank level, and then Lesa and the RTE Team work at the Do Tank level. Again, Sharks, Thinks, and then the Doers. The people who code, the people who test, the people who deploy who manage the change aspects.
LESLIE MORSE: The magic makers.
JILL EDMUNDSON: The magic makers! “Do” originally started as the meeting for people who get the job done, like you can’t spell done without D-O.
LESLIE MORSE: Oh, I love that.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yeah, so it became the Do Tank. It’s a cleverly rebranding of Scrum of Scrums. We found that we had a hard time getting butts in seats when we called it Scrum of Scrums, so we rebranded it, we gave it a lot more energy, we gave it new purpose and vitality. Between Shark, Think, and Do, that three-sixty communication not only goes from Top-Down but it goes from Bottom-Up. When the Do-Tankers say “Hey, we’ve got this impediment, we’ve got this risk” we need to let that known, we can immediately pull that lever and go to our Think Tank partners, or immediately pull that lever and go to our Shark Tank partners. Are we perfect? No. But are we better than we used to be, and are we talking, and are we developing empathy for one another, and really figuring out what is it that makes your team successful and how can we help? That’s what we’re focused on.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s really great. You guys started off with three aspects of mission: work visible, connecting with strategy, and what was the third one again?
LESA PHILLIPS: Driving engagement and excitement.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Our favorite.
LESLIE MORSE: The two of you read excitement and passion all day long, how do you make that infectious throughout the group?
LESA PHILLIPS: You’ve got to get people engaged, they have to want what you want, right? And they have to understand the why. I think that’s the biggest thing, is helping explain the why to people. Our driving engagement and excitement takes place through our PI Planning Sessions, our showcase.
LESLIE MORSE: I imagine PI Planning with y’all is much more like a party than it is PI Planning.
LESA PHILLIPS: It kind of is.
JILL EDMUNDSON: It is a party, almost. We’ve gotten some feedback that maybe we need to tone it down a bit. Like, “there’s work here to be connected ladies.” So, achieving that balance. Sometimes we’re like, oh, throw the Russian score out and let’s keep doing what we’re doing. I don’t know if your listeners would be interested in this but PI Planning is one of those concepts that we’ve decomposed too and said it’s not just one thing. We’ve decoupled planning in a couple ways, we’ve said there’s a strategic part of planning, and that can exist on its own. Strategy knows no boundaries, so if we want to do a yearly planning or a twice a year planning, we can do that with our strategy. Setting the vision, having the product managers do that. Then there’s the actual practical, breaking the work down, having team-level commitments, risk mitigation, risk roaming, that’s where we’ve been a little bit more pragmatic. Taking the party out and putting a little bit more common sense in.
Setting that strategy and vision is a really cool opportunity to drive engagement and excitement.
LESLIE MORSE: Excellent. What else about that? Anything?
LESA PHILLIPS: I think another huge way that we’ve increased our engagement and excitement is through our Product Showcase. Not only do we kick it off, kick our PIs off with planning, but then we also wrap up- it’s important not just for our engineering teams but for our business partners as well to see what’s the value that was delivered in the last thirteen weeks. We’ve done that through leadership panel talks, we’ve done expos where our business partners can come in and actually tinker with the system and see exactly what the clients are going to experience, and letting them have that touch and feel, and feel like they’re a part of that, I think has drastically improved.
LESLIE MORSE: And what a better way to get actual, real feedback on what’s working and what’s not with getting them hands-on.
JILL EDMUNDSON: We had a member of our HR recruiting team attend our showcase about 3 months ago, and she said she learned more in that 2 hour showcase than she had in previous years. Just think about that from a learner experience, we create software which can be really, really hard to connect with. Especially when it’s complex billing software and it’s a lot of interface and APIs. For us to create a venue where there’s an actual show and tell experience, almost like what Apple did when they re-imagined their retail experience, where a user can come in and they can touch the software and they can touch the iPads. We’re not quite at the Apple level, but that’s the goal. Let’s connect the people with the software that we’re making at CSG so they can go out and tell the story.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s so great. Now, is it more than just mission? I know I think about Agile has Agile Values and Agile Principles, so what is the underlying thing that goes along with these three aspects of mission that really help you drive it home?
JILL EDMUNDSON: What do you think? The transformation enablement is probably the newest part. Because we had such a practical task at first, which was “hey, let’s get in there, let’s move the value streams, let’s create more Agile methodologies.” Something that just happened organically was our ability to drive transformational behavior. Do you want to talk about how that’s kind of the emerging fourth pillar?
LESA PHILLIPS: We are developing what we call our CSG Café. What that will include is the agility training, and how to get teams to think differently, and servant leadership, how to get leadership to think differently. All of those aspects on how do we bring not just one part of our organization along with us, but how do we really include everyone? Right now we’re looking at reaching into HR and finance, and other areas of the business, and bringing them along so that transformation enablement is really going to build out how that happens.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Moving on, and that’s why I think being here at the Business Agility Conference is so cool, because we have been so focused on our software delivery and software agility, now we’re at a point in our maturity where we’re like what’s the next hill we want to climb? Is it bringing our business partners onto this journey in a more meaningful, intentional way? Is it bringing our support partners, HR, Audit, Finance, on this journey? Not to say we’re at end of job with software by any stretch of the imagination, but we’re at the point now where we can take a step back and figure out where do we go from here?
LESLIE MORSE: That’s really exciting. I’m going to put you on the spot, we didn’t chat about this as we were getting ready to start recording today, but some of the best ways to learn is actually by kind of screwing stuff up. Do you guys have any kind of crash and burn or failure stories that you could share that might be good insights for our listeners?
JILL EDMUNDSON: How much time do we have?
LESLIE MORSE: Let’s just get one from each of you.
JILL EDMUNDSON: I have a tee shirt that’s in my closet, and I should wear it probably almost every day but I’m a trouble maker. I’m a trouble maker because I know we can always do things better. My crash and burn is just knowing, when do you best apply that? Because you can’t have that kind of mentality and that kind of rigor every day, it has to be played cautiously. So, I would say if anything we’ve gone into meetings before and I’m sitting there and I’m passionate about driving change, and then I walk out and Lesa counsels me and she says “Jill, this was not the time or the place for that.” Like, not today, not under this set of circumstances. So then I take some time to reflect and I’m like, you’re right.
Agile is not… You can’t push someone into it. It’s not really an ‘it’ anyway, it’s such a behavior, so my crash and burn is more personal reflection and team reflection of knowing how we fit into the bigger picture. I think Lesa said it earlier, “leading from behind,” and letting the business determine the pace at which we adopt this, but us kind of always being there to lead from behind.
LESA PHILLIPS: I would have to say my biggest crash and burn moment is when I first started. The one thing that I have been truly blessed with since Jill and I have partnered is that I came into this role and I was pure Agilist: “This is how we have to do it, this is how it’s done.” I didn’t have that business context behind what I was trying to implement. I think that’s been where I’ve probably learned the most is being able to say, “OK you know what? That’s great, but that’s not what works for us.” Now being able to start speaking into this is what works for CSG, and it may not be industry standard and that’s okay.
LESLIE MORSE: There’s a million ways to be Agile, right? It’s all values, principles-based work. You guys are probably inventing things that organizations have never done before that we’ll be writing books about in two years.
JILL EDMUNDSON: That would be cool. That’s kind of on our list.
LESA PHILLIPS: Yeah, that would be cool. That is kind of on our idea board.
LESLIE MORSE: Very nice. Let’s see what else… I want to talk about diversity. I love the fact that we have two strong women here actually at the table having this conversation about driving business agility and organization. How does diversity in leadership impact the journey that you all are on, and how does that play out?
LESA PHILLIPS: I guess when we’re at the table with leadership, I don’t think we’re looked at any differently. We’ve proven ourselves, we are in a predominately male industry, but we are respected in that industry and I think that our values, our opinions, our suggestions, are all taken. I feel our leadership team has strongly supported us. I don’t see the difference, I guess.
JILL EDMUNDSON: I completely agree. I think probably, Lesa, the reason we feel that way is because we have a track record of delivering results, we have a track record of success, we have a track record of bringing people on the journey with us. Because you and I are kind of blind to that, we’re naturally inclusive, maybe that is why we don’t recognize that. If you sit in any meeting, you’ll notice we are very underrepresented.
LESA PHILLIPS: The ratio is skewed.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Yes, so I’m happy to be here as a woman leader in this industry, and also my women colleagues back at CSG who will hopefully listen to this podcast, they have taken women’s empowerment to a whole new level. Over the past twelve months, they’ve created a program at CSG called WE LEAD. WE stands for Women Empowerment and it’s Leadership, Engagement, Agility, Development, and they’re leading networking circles, they’re leading STEM circles, they’re leading mentoring circles, and so if something’s wrong you need to have the courage to step in and say “I’m going to be the one to fix it.” If you don’t who will? I tell Lesa that every day, if we’re not taking these opportunities on, no one else will. So we kind of pride ourselves… I don’t remember what they called it earlier today, was it a Wicked Challenge? I call them the Big Uglies. We take on some of the biggest, ugliest challenges at CSG. We do so not thinking “I’ve got all the answers,” but we’ve got the courage to try to make incremental value. Man, woman, anything in between, we’re here to make it happen.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s awesome. Final takeaways, if we were going to record this and it was only a 2 minute podcast and you just had one thing you could say to all the listeners, what would each of you say?
LESA PHILLIPS: I’d say connecting the people. Connecting people is by far in my opinion one of the most important aspects of what we do.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Connect the people, and find ways to start speaking a common language. If you’re speaking points and the other teams are speaking hours and you’re at some sort of impasse, find a way to break through. Whether that’s bringing a third party in or Rosetta Stone-ing the information, or doing something, find ways to learn how to speak a common language. Once that trust is built, once that empathy is developed, true change can start to occur. We often say, forget about relationships and make it a partnership. Then, magic can happen. I think we started off saying “let’s build a relationship with our engineering partners,” now that it’s a partnership it’s unstoppable.
LESA PHILLIPS: I think one of our coworkers said it best, he said “I’ve always felt like I was part of the Product Management Team, but now I feel like I’m part of two teams.” And that’s because we really have partnered. It’s not Us against Them, it’s a partnership.
LESLIE MORSE: That’s so great.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Very cool times.
LESLIE MORSE: Lesa and Jill, thank you both so much for making some time to share aspects of this story and I think the way you guys are able to summarize the mission is incredibly resonant, I want to come work with y’all. That sounds amazing.
JILL EDMUNDSON: Likewise!
LESA PHILLIPS: Aw!
LESLIE MORSE: So thank you both for being here today.
LESA PHILLIPS: Thank you!
JILL EDMUNDSON: Thank you, Leslie.
LESLIE MORSE: You’re welcome. And thank you guys for listening to Agile Amped. If you learned something new, please tell a friend, coworker, or client about the podcast and we invite you to subscribe online so you can hear more inspiring conversations.